Guest post by staff writer Will Van Stone, Jr.
I’ve been a fan of yours for a while now and have enjoyed your wit and wisdom on many a morning. I haven’t always agreed with every word you typed but there’s never been a moment where I was all oh, no she di’int until today. In case you don’t automatically realize which response has led to this moment, here ya go. {Editor comment: please read the article before commenting.} It’s cool. Go remember. I can wait.
Back now? Cool.
Do you know why you’re in the deep doodoo? Have you seen the error of your ways? Do you understand how horrible the “advice” you gave to “Uncertain in Illinois” was? If you don’t, let me give you some advice.
Referring to Rape as a ‘Breakdown in Communications’
She knew a boy who totes wanted to do her but wasn’t all into gettin’ the D. As that’s her choice, she has every right to not want it. While she was okay with a bit of snogging, she wasn’t ready to go all the way. Yes, she states that she went with him to the secluded area but that doesn’t mean she was giving consent. It meant that she was in the boy’s truck while he drove. Those are the facts as Uncertain relayed them.
Still with me?
While they were in the secluded area, they had sex (as Uncertain referred to it and seeing neither of us were there, that’s what we’ll call it, too), during which she said she told him he was hurting her three times before he stopped. That right there is a red flag that pushes the episode more into the rape column. Now, he could’ve just been the worst lay in the history of ever and was so caught up in the oo-la-la feelings down under to notice, but something tells me that’s not the truth. Call it instinct.
Bad Advice is Bad Advice
Now, after the incident, she got conflicting advice when she went to two close friends with her story that went from one extreme to the other: I told two of my close friends about what happened. One said he had essentially raped me. The other said it doesn’t count as rape because even though I said it hurt, I didn’t say it forcefully enough. They were just as wrong as you, just so you know. Why?
Simple. Only the person who may or may not have been raped can say they were or were not. They need to look at the situation and come to the conclusion for themselves. We, on the outside, cannot dictate someone’s thoughts on what happened aside from guaranteeing a proper education about what rape is (which is something, it seems, many do not receive). And encouraging “tell an adult” message is good; from there, Uncertain could’ve worked on figuring out the mess in her head.
And, congrats, you did tell her that. You said to go to her parents or other trusted adult, though I wonder at the non mention of la policia. But, hey, maybe that’s me nitpicking. For all the good of that paragraph, you ruined it all from line one when you wrote:
It appears you and that boy had a severe breakdown in communication, which led to your being sexually assaulted. He had made no secret that he wanted sex with you, and may have interpreted your willingness to kiss him after he took you somewhere other than what was agreed upon as a signal that you were willing, even though you didn’t say so.
Rape Isn’t Caused by a Severe Breakdown in Communication
I’m not even sure where the hell to begin. I mean, rape isn’t cause by “a severe breakdown in communication” but from one person forcing or otherwise coercing another into having sex they don’t want. So what if he didn’t hide his raging hormones! That sounds an awful lot like the boys will be boys defense and as a boy, that fucking offends me (and I’m not easily offended, so congrats on that). I can be as horny as hell, but still able to keep my penis out of places it’s not welcome. It’s called common decency, something you seem to assume owners of boy parts are incapable of.
Okay, maybe that last part was pushing it, but that part just really annoyed me.
Now, with that in mind, I’m even more amazed that you followed that up with a pretty accurate (in an old timey way cause let’s be honest, rape goes beyond unwanted penis in vagina) description of rape when you said Date rape happens when a fellow ends up coercing or forcing a girl to have sex without her consent. Unless a girl explicitly expresses her willingness to proceed, it is the responsibility of the boy NOT to proceed.
How can you place (partial) blame on her while then calling out the boy for doing wrong? Rape isn’t a “share the blame” game.
One side is wrong. It doesn’t matter if she was buck nekkid, spread eagle with a neon sign pointing to her niblets, she didn’t want it. Getting into a car and getting’ your kiss-kiss on is not consent for a bit of the pokey; it’s kissing. Whether she screamed for help or not, she obviously didn’t want it. She also wouldn’t be wondering if she was raped. Something inside her seems to be telling her something bad was done to her. And you turned that shit around and laid it on her lap.
Rape Culture, Defined
It needn’t be loud or messy or involve a creepy creeping creeper sneaking up on you in a dark alley and all that stereotypical stuff that scary nightmares are made of. It’s a simple refusal to not stop when permission hasn’t been given. Your response failed her; a scared, confused girl who doesn’t know what to think. You, a trusted voice, fell back on a twisted mix of rape culture and sexist information to tell her the way wrong thing.
Dear Abby, I never thought I’d say this but shut the fuck up.
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I am a little confused by your reaction. Yes, she said there was a severe breakdown in communication, but that referred to how she got to that place and Abby didn’t stop there. After, she refers to it as date rape, and advises telling adults.
Clearly the guy raped her. Abby doesn’t seem to suggest anything otherwise. She just says that prior to that, the guy was not getting the message, which in no way negates the rape or alleviates his guilt about it. The girl is clearly trying to figure out and process what happened, and just saying YOU WERE RAPED doesn’t help that, even if you do eventually say that. This is a guy she liked, and it is confusing and hellish to have somebody violate your trust even before the rape. While I think Abby could have been more clear at the end, I think you are deliberately misconstruing her comments to act as if she is saying rape is a severe breakdown in communications.
HI Ben, Rachel here, editor and site owner. If you read the referenced Dear Abby article, Will is quoting Dear Abby exactly: http://www.uexpress.com/dearabby/2016/4/13/breakdown-in-communication-has-serious-lasting. Abby IS saying rape is a severe breakdown in communications in her response to Uncertain, and if you Google the topic, the internet’s reaction has been just as harsh.
I’ll let Will reply to you. Just wanted to clarify that. Thanks!
I read the column before I responded. I simply meant that Abby did not stop there, but went on to call it date rape. “Date rape happens when a fellow ends up coercing or forcing a girl to have sex without her consent.” I think it would be fair to critique Abby for implying that the girl bore any responsibility, but she did not say that rape WAS a severe breakdown in communication as the guest poster said. She said that a severe breakdown in communication led to her being in a vulnerable situation, it which point she was raped. Forcing the issue made it rape. Bad communication led to being in a place or situation where she got raped, though it still was not in any way her fault.
“It appears you and that boy had a severe breakdown in communication, which led to your being sexually assaulted.”
That’s a very clear “you bear some responsibility” bs. I’m not going to ignore part of her response because later on she started to get it right.
“Yes, she said there was a severe breakdown in communication, but that referred to how she got to that place and Abby didn’t stop there.”
With her opening line, she has just said the equivalent of, “Don’t put yourself in a position where you might be raped.”
That’s the same as saying it’s as much the girl’s fault she got raped as it is the guy’s fault that he raped her.
She goes on to advise her as to what to do now that she has been raped, but that does not excuse the fact that Abby starts by saying, “Well, you shouldn’t have put yourself in that situation in the first place.”
I’ve been alone with plenty of guys in my life and none of them raped me. Could they have? Yes. But they didn’t. The difference isn’t in that I didn’t put myself in that situation. The difference is that the guys I’ve been alone with happened to not be the sort to force a girl or woman to have sex.
The blame of an assault of any kind should never be placed on the victim, not even a little bit. And I think that’s what Will is railing against, that Abby opened her advice with, “It appears you and that boy had a severe breakdown in communication, which led to your being sexually assaulted.”
Her very first line blamed the victim, at least to some extent, for getting raped. I think that first line was just really poorly worded. It’s almost like she was trying to open with a light tone, and this was simply not the right time for that.
I agree with Will. It’s that kind of ‘Candy Coating’ on the subject of sexual assault that has caused victims to feel shame and self-blame, the second stage of rape.
Excellent commentary, Will! I was fuming when I read this column. I blogged about this over at Legendary Women:
https://medium.com/legendary-women/some-advice-for-the-advice-queen-6e699ef7eac6#.8f4w1lssk
By Abby saying the miscommunication led to her sexual assault it is a clear implication that Abby is blaming the girl for what happened. And while Abby does give a text-book definition of what date rape is, she also doesn’t tell this girl that she’s been date raped. In fact, she says it was the severe miscommunication that led to this girl’s sexual assault.
The girl got into the guy’s truck, in her mind, to talk and possibly make out. That’s a pretty clear expectation on her part. Once he takes her to a “semi-secluded” location, she’s then isolated, has no way to get back, etc.
Will nailed it on this one. Abby needs to hand these advice-seeking letters over to the guest columnists from RAINN.
You make a really good point I hadn’t previously noticed. Abby’s advice totally negates the girl’s expectations. She expected NOT to be raped, and that’s a reasonable expectation. She talks about the boy’s expectations, but why are his the only ones that are valid or worth consideration?
She really bungled this one. I agree with you, this kind of advice shouldn’t have come from Abby. Poor kid. I hope she got some better advice from a trusted adult. I hope that part of Abby’s advice made it past the, “Well, this is partly your fault” part.
Thank you, Will. I was once that poor kid who was in a place other people said, “I shouldn’t have been in.” Friends told me it wasn’t rape because I didn’t fight hard or yell and because he didn’t hurt me (physically). I felt ashamed and stupid and very much raped, but I didn’t want to call it that because people said I was wrong. People I trusted enforced the rape culture ideas that Abby is pushing with her: you got in his car and the communication was mixed. You don’t just dole out sex. It’s not fucking candy, Abby. It’s sex. She clearly didn’t want it. It hurt her and now she’s reaching out for help and trusted people are giving her shit advice. Gross. You called it, Will.
Agreed. I’ve been in “situations I shouldn’t have been in” but I’ve NEVER been raped. The difference is that my wishes were respected. If I said, “Don’t do that,” it didn’t happen. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that even if you’re alone with a guy (or a guy alone with girl, it happens too) and stripped down to absolutely nothing and change your mind, he will respect that. It’s reasonable to assume you won’t be raped, no matter what “situation you put yourself in.” It’s bullshit to blame a girl for getting raped, saying she set herself up for that to happen. My heart goes out to those who have to deal with this. It pisses me off, but I can’t imagine what it does to them.
That whole “boys will be boys” attitude really chaps my hide. We see it in schools when girls aren’t allowed to wear blouses that show their COLLAR BONES for fear that a boy will be so wrapped up in his hormones that it would make it impossible for him to concentrate on his schoolwork. Boys are being taught from an early age that girls have to watch out for how they entice boys & that boys aren’t responsible for how they feel when they see a girl in what the boy percieves as “sexual”. I’d written a blog post about that little word “just”. Girls that have been raped (women for that matter too) are always being told that it’s “just sex” why are they getting their panties in a wad. It’s ridiculous.
I read the article & was surprised at the back & forth that she was going through. On the one hand it’s the girl’s fault…on the other hand it’s the boy’s fault. When it comes to rape you can’t be on BOTH sides of the fence. It just doesn’t work that way. Either you’re with rape or against it. It might seem to over simplify it…but it’s the truth.
It’s great to see a man frustrated by this. Hopefully one of these days when that phrase “boys will be boys” is bandied around…it’ll be in reference to men or boys that get frustrated by this behavior & do something about it. 🙂
totally on board with you here, Moni. It makes NO sense. People (male or female) don’t rape themselves. It’s completely the fault and responsibility of the rapist. It’s a crime. They make the choice to commit a crime or not, to violate or not, to be a good person or wreak havoc on someone’s life, mind, and body.
In this case, at any time, when the girl was crying, “NO, STOP, IT HURTS,” he could have thought … ‘Hmmmm, maybe she isn’t as interested in this as I am. Maybe I should stop” but he didn’t. How that’s HER fault, and how people can honestly believe she is to blame is beyond belief.
The girl does share some blame. Just like Trump shares blame for inciting riots.
If you are white and scream the N-Word at BLM protesters guess what’s gonna happen. You are gonna be assaulted… physically. It’s common sense. Why do so many people think they have ZERO responsibility for anything? Your words and actions matter because other people see, hear, and feel them even if you like to pretend they don’t. Even if it’s sex and you are a woman. Got it?
The teen was raped and her selfishly seeking the attention from someone who wanted to have sex with contributed to that.
Um. No.. You seem to be under the impression that women owe you something just because you perceive their dress or actions or words mean they’re desperate to have you inside of them. Now before you tell me how horribly wrong I am, don’t. Your comment completely discounts what a woman wants and replaces it with your desires. That’s misogyny. That’s rape culture. She’s not selfishly seeking anything. She was raped by a boy who didn’t care how his actions affected her. You were right on two points though, so congrats on not that. Trump is responsible for the violence he incites. And a white dude who screams the n-word at a BLM demonstrator should expect to get hit; it’s a vile, racist, ugly, cruel word used to make black people feel like they’re lesser. Which, not shockingly, is your view of women.
Will. Will. Will
You are probably not old enough, or experienced enough to understand this, but it’s really simple. You don’t romantically USE other people to fill a void in your life. It’s WRONG! That rule applies to EVERYONE, even teen girls who are trying to get attention because of a bad break up.
People aren’t pets. Got it? The girl in the Abby column knew that a boy was”thirsty” for her and decided to abuse that power to make herself feel better. And what happened?
They both victimized each other. She emotionally abused him and he sexually abused her. Grow up!
Wait, I’m confused. Did she rape herself? Cause that seems pretty physically impossible to me. Unless she grew her own penis, odds are the BOY RAPED HER. She’s not responsible for his behavior, just as he’s not responsible for hers.
In grade school we learn the Golden Rule. How does that get flung out the window when it comes to where he puts his penis? It’s okay for the girl to be responsible but not the boy?
Sorry, dude, but no can do.
What are you talking about?
Both are victims and victimizers.
She emotionally abused him. You don’t get to romantically use other people to make yourself feel better after a break up.
He sexually abused her. You don’t get to sexually use other people who are emotionally abusing you.
Let’s extend your analogy for a second… for her to do the equivalent of Trump’s incitement, or the person that screams at a BLM rally? She’d have to have said something like “you know, women who kiss you always want to have sex” or “I bet you can’t rape me!” to the boy.
Clothing, kissing, even being nice to someone is not “inciting rape.”
Consenting to one thing does not mean consenting to another. If you say “you know, I’d love a scotch and soda” and I give you a drink with oxycodone mixed in? I’m not going to say “well, you bear some responsibility for that – after all, you asked me for a mild drug (alcohol) so why wouldn’t I think you would be fine with me giving you a powerful opioid?”
Unfortunately, it seems like you’ve fallen prey to the false logic that props up the rape culture here — that the victim somehow did something to cause it and that the rapist ‘couldn’t help it’ because he was confused or incapable of understanding consent.
You obviously don’t understand the analogy.
If you scream the N word at someone and he/she punches you in the face. You surely have been assaulted, but every reasonable person in the world understands you share blame.
The girl admits she was using a boy emotionally to feel better about herself. I guess she couldn’t help herself eh? Gotta take advantage of strong emotion like desire. Can’t let that “thirst” go to waste, now could she?
See neither of the boy NOR girl respected each other and so…
He turned the table and used her sexually to feel better about himself.
This is really simple. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Was it his fault she took the emotional comfort he offered? No. Was it her fault he took sex she didn’t offer? No.
What you’re saying, though, is that b/c he was “thirsty” for her, it’s his fault she used him. You can’t have it one way for the girl and the other way for the guy. That’s contradicting yourself.
So, by your logic, it’s the guy’s own fault she took advantage of him being “thirsty” for her and used him for emotional comfort.
I disagree with you on both points. It’s not his fault she used him to feel better about herself. It’s not her fault he raped her.
Also, there’s a difference between what she did and what did. Again, very simple.
She hurt him emotionally (according to your logic).
He hurt her emotionally AND physically.
Clearly his actions were not a just turnabout, an eye for an eye, as you seem to believe.
Malcolm,
Your twisted views are so much of what is wrong with this world. I hope with everything that I have in me that someone close to you is never the victim of a rape, especially if they have to come to you for solace.
The new way for a jilted woman to get hers back on that cheatin’ mayun, make a phony rape accusation or just a sexual assault claim and the broken hearted maiden can have her revenge. I have seen this phony sexual attack business far too often to take it seriously, oh, dear, the sweet young thing tells the police three years after the “rape” and claims she was too upset to come forward at once. I am sick to death of the way twisted women use this dirty trick to wreak their vengeance on an innocent man who was stupid enough to get involved with a cold and manipulative woman.
Woah, there. I think you have some woman-related issues considering how much you seem to hate the gender. You also have a piss poor understanding of rape and the way it traumatizes the victim. You are also frighteningly unaware of what the statistics involving false rape accusations are; to find them, just Google (It’s amazing how many FACTS you can find) and read.
Rape victims don’t always come forward because of mindsets like yours. Your words are textbook rape culture. Either that or the worst satire I’ve ever read.
I’m seriously hoping this is satire, because to believe it to be serious commentary on rape would betray all I believe about the good and fair in people. So, I’m going with satire.
If, somehow, Jerry Bob is really your name and you really believe this to be true, perhaps you could do a little research and then come on back now, ya hear? And we can have some gosh darn good ole’ down home sit around the campfire talk about the birds and the bees, and what the definition of that big scary ‘consent’ word is that them there feminists keep referring to.
Now, thanks for visitin’ my little blog and y’all have a good day now.
Good on you Rachel. I was date raped and everyone blamed me for sending him the ‘wrong signals’. The fact that I made it clear from the start that I didn’t want sex, apparently made no difference because I allowed ‘other things’. Eventually I blamed myself, until 5 years later (in a new and loving relationship) I had a breakdown as it all came back to me and I was old enough to realise that I was never to blame. My husband has never once told me I was a tease, or continued to do anything sexual, if I say stop. Even if we are almost there and I change my mind, he still stops. And I do the same for him. That’s the way it should be, and anything else is rape – simple! Whether it’s happening to a male or female, it doesn’t matter.
Oh, Kristy, I’m SO sorry! What a horrific experience. Thank you for sharing — so many people go through this and blame themselves, listening to others who blame them, too — when we don’t rape ourselves! The trauma can affect us in so many ways.
Thank goodness you have an amazing partner now who understands and loves you through it!
What the fuckity, Jerry Bob?
Will, thank you so much for publicly calling Abby out for her horrible response to Uncertain. Thank you for standing up against rape culture. Thank you for speaking truth in the face of all of the Jerry Bob’s of this world. Victims need more advocates like you!
I think you give me too much credit, Bobbi. I simply saw incredible stupidity and couldn’t fight the urge to yell at it 🙂
Will, this is an excellent piece, thank you.
I must say I am disgusted by some of the comments on this one, not at all surprised, sadly, just disgusted. It sure does shine a light on how truly far we still have to go in regard to victim’s rights, and victim shaming. Thanks again Will and Rachel, outstanding piece.